SilentMovie 23 hours ago
SilentMovie 23 hours ago
+2 Votes
Despite the Congress stonewalling Obama at every turn, he has done a remarkable job economically. Bill Clinton did too if you'll look back at his legacy. Republican Presidents don't have a clue when it comes to spending and debt reduction.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-debt-load-falling-at-fastest-pace-since-1950s-2012-06-08?link=MW_popular
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-debt-load-falling-at-fastest-pace-since-1950s-2012-06-08?link=MW_popular
Ornithopters 23 hours ago
+5 Votes
Someone else posted this lame topic yesterday. the reason our personal debt load is going down is not because we are saving our pennies, but because the loans are being discharged through bankruptcy, Foreclosures, and short sales.
Much of this debt was merely Federalized as the government steps in with various homeowner bail out plans, bank bailouts, Fanny/Freddie bailouts, Student Loan bailouts, etc.
So it is not gone, it is just part of the 15 trillion that we all now owe. It is like making my debt load lower, by transferring it all to my wife. Really no difference.
Much of this debt was merely Federalized as the government steps in with various homeowner bail out plans, bank bailouts, Fanny/Freddie bailouts, Student Loan bailouts, etc.
So it is not gone, it is just part of the 15 trillion that we all now owe. It is like making my debt load lower, by transferring it all to my wife. Really no difference.
Cougardan 19 hours ago
+6 Votes
Indeed.... Rex needs to stay away from topics involving math....either he is a willing liar like Obama or he is a pure product of the poor education our country offers in the modern era.
louman 21 hours ago
+6 Votes
O took office the debt was at 10 trillion. Today approaching 16 trillion.
Need a little help here.
Rex's article was an opinion piece.
Need a little help here.
Rex's article was an opinion piece.
TheScott 6 hours ago
+1 Vote
This little chart will show just how debt has been displaced.... It hasn't gone away, it has just been shifted.
@#$%&!akcs-www?get_gallerynr=3117
@#$%&!akcs-www?get_gallerynr=3117
TheScott 5 hours ago
+1 Vote
This little chart will show just how debt has been displaced.... It hasn't gone away, it has just been shifted.
market-ticker.denninger.net*/akcs-www?get_gallerynr=3118
Remove the ' * ' from the link.... looks like they have started to block denninger again...
market-ticker.denninger.net*/akcs-www?get_gallerynr=3118
Remove the ' * ' from the link.... looks like they have started to block denninger again...
Nohelp1 21 hours ago
+1 Vote
Ornithopters 21 hours ago
+3 Votes
stndyogrnd 20 hours ago
+2 Votes
LOL perfect right wing response. one site exposes right wing lies, and the right wing reply is cartoons of badgers... and then they whine about not being taken seriously
Ornithopters 20 hours ago
+4 Votes
@stndy,
The point is the one site is just as silly as the other.
I do understand how in your extremely limited POV you can fail to grasp that.
The point is the one site is just as silly as the other.
I do understand how in your extremely limited POV you can fail to grasp that.
soccermon 17 hours ago
Ornithopters 17 hours ago
+3 Votes
I could have saved you time. Just print out the line below and attach it to the front of your obviously "liberal rose" colored glasses.
"Obama is a Brilliant Miracle Worker"
"Obama is a Brilliant Miracle Worker"
stndyogrnd 17 hours ago
+1 Vote
LOL right wingers should print out the line below and attach it to their glasses
"Its all Obama's fault"
The rest of us will simple remember the reality that Obama was handed a huge economic mess by his predecessor GW, who in 8 yrs tools a surplus, who more then doubled the debt, left us in two mismanaged wars, and wrecked the economy, requiring that the Government have to bail out banks allowed to grow too big to fail, as well as trying stimulate the economy. We will also remember that rather then admit to that Republicans have done all they can to keep Obama from repairing the disaster they spawned, and right wing liars have spent the last 3 yrs trying to blame Obama for it all.
"Its all Obama's fault"
The rest of us will simple remember the reality that Obama was handed a huge economic mess by his predecessor GW, who in 8 yrs tools a surplus, who more then doubled the debt, left us in two mismanaged wars, and wrecked the economy, requiring that the Government have to bail out banks allowed to grow too big to fail, as well as trying stimulate the economy. We will also remember that rather then admit to that Republicans have done all they can to keep Obama from repairing the disaster they spawned, and right wing liars have spent the last 3 yrs trying to blame Obama for it all.
louman 17 hours ago
+6 Votes
To those that may not recognize the info below, it's what was spent by the US Government total. No smoke and mirrors. Please note spending increases every year. Spending increased dramatically in 2009 and continues to grow every year. 2011-12 200 billion increase in spending. Focus on the dollars not percentages.
Year................Amt. US spending
2000..................1788.95 a
2001..................1862.85 a
2002..................2010.89 a
2003..................2159.90 a
2004..................2292.84 a
2005..................2471.96 a
2006..................2655.05 a
2007..................2728.69 a
2008..................2982.54 a
2009..................3517.68 a
... />2010..................3456.21 a
2011 ..................3603.06 a
2012..................3795.55
http://www.usfederalbudget.us/spending_chart_1997_2012USb_13s1li111mcn_F0f_Overall_Federal_Spending_Chart#copypaste
Stndy,
I'm interested in real facts from your government not a shill site. less
Year................Amt. US spending
2000..................1788.95 a
2001..................1862.85 a
2002..................2010.89 a
2003..................2159.90 a
2004..................2292.84 a
2005..................2471.96 a
2006..................2655.05 a
2007..................2728.69 a
2008..................2982.54 a
2009..................3517.68 a
... />2010..................3456.21 a
2011 ..................3603.06 a
2012..................3795.55
http://www.usfederalbudget.us/spending_chart_1997_2012USb_13s1li111mcn_F0f_Overall_Federal_Spending_Chart#copypaste
Stndy,
I'm interested in real facts from your government not a shill site. less
Ornithopters 17 hours ago
+6 Votes
Same in California. For all the 16 billion deficit here are there, the revenue keeps coming in 5% more per year, but somehow there is a need to spend even more, and once you spend never let up.
Cougardan 16 hours ago
+4 Votes
stndyogrnd 16 hours ago
In the 11 quarters since the recession officially ended, total domestic debt has risen by just $702 billion, or 1.4%. By contrast, in the 11 quarters before the recession began, in those bubble years of 2005, 2006 and 2007, total debt increased by $10.7 trillion, or 28%.
LOL those are the facts, and the right wing Obama haters need to spin them of course because Obama can never have any credit for anything. if it were a Republican president in office today,taking over from a democrat president, then that Republican would be a messiah and miracle worker according to those same right wing sycophants... just like GW was until the whole thing blew up in their face.
LOL those are the facts, and the right wing Obama haters need to spin them of course because Obama can never have any credit for anything. if it were a Republican president in office today,taking over from a democrat president, then that Republican would be a messiah and miracle worker according to those same right wing sycophants... just like GW was until the whole thing blew up in their face.
louman 16 hours ago
+3 Votes
Are you referring to personal debt? If so, who cares, it's the national debt that will put the icing on the cake.
stndyogrnd 15 hours ago
LOL it was failure to be able to pay off the private debt that shut down the economy....
louman 8 hours ago
+1 Vote
stndyogrnd 3 hours ago
Here is an interesting fact of life...... when whole economies go bust, for what ever reason, too much public or private debt..... guess what human institution has to step in and "fix" it by any means possible..... That would be the "Government" , because it is the "Government" that defines and enforces that rule that a society and culture lives by... it the "Government" can't or won't then anarchy ensues, and that is the end of that civilization.
That's just the way it is. All the ideologies, laws, agreements, constitutions, in the world become meaningless, and we revert to a survival of the fittest animal mentality.
Now Human beings seem to have propensity for social order, and rules, so something will usually form up, over time, and that will be some new form of "Government". Even Attilla that hun when he invaded and took over countries , had some form of "Government"...... Human beings are Social Animals, they will always from up some sort of hierarchy of command and control less
That's just the way it is. All the ideologies, laws, agreements, constitutions, in the world become meaningless, and we revert to a survival of the fittest animal mentality.
Now Human beings seem to have propensity for social order, and rules, so something will usually form up, over time, and that will be some new form of "Government". Even Attilla that hun when he invaded and took over countries , had some form of "Government"...... Human beings are Social Animals, they will always from up some sort of hierarchy of command and control less
TheScott 2 hours ago
+1 Vote
When you back track though law, regulations, tax codes and treaties... you will find that it was generally government interference that caused the problem in the first place....
stndyogrnd 1 hour ago
When you dig deeper then the shallow knee jerk "its all Governments fault" perception. One will find that "Government" failed to either create or enforce regulations because the very entities they were trying to regulate has perverted the effort by using money to distort the process. Corruption of that process is the problem, not the existence of Government or regulations that are absolutely necessary, because left to its own devices amoral unbridled capitalism is a survival of the fittest monopoly game that will end up serving just a relative few.
TheScott 1 hour ago
+3 Votes
SYG - I will agree... we have corruption in government but you have to stop painting the regulation issue as an all or nothing partisan problem. You cannot find comments by any politician that has ever advocated for a government that is totally hands free of business. I take that back, I am sure you can but they reside so far to the fringe that they wouldn't even vote for themselves.... No one is talking about no regulations.... I am talking about over regulating, sticking it's nose where, frankly, it has no business. It isn't governments business to tell me how I spend my money nor is it the business of government to tell business what products to make... the market (consumer) will decide that. If the government had left in place one piece of regulation Glass Steagal and adding that derivatives had to be traded over the counter with margin as pointed out by Brooksey Born in the late 90's.. no credit crisis. 2 simple pieces of legislation... not 1000's... less
TheScott 6 hours ago
+3 Votes
You show me the off balance sheet 'assets' of Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, the Federal Reserve and the banks..... and I will show you the rest of the debt.... But of course, you can't show me the off balance sheet holdings because they are all private institutions....
louman 45 minutes ago
+2 Votes
Public debt= I want out of control.
Public debt= I bought more house than I could afford.
Public debt= Used the credit card because I want it now.
Public debt= Bought more car than I could afford.
Public debt = greed and stoopidity.
It's not governments job to bail out individuals that have little self control.
Public debt= I bought more house than I could afford.
Public debt= Used the credit card because I want it now.
Public debt= Bought more car than I could afford.
Public debt = greed and stoopidity.
It's not governments job to bail out individuals that have little self control.
stndyogrnd 33 minutes ago
Well that simplistic right wing version of what happened with the last bubble expansion and sudden contraction has been debunked here so many times it simply pathetic that anyone would keep posting that cognitively challenged fantasy version of what happened.
the banks who historically controlled credit, for decades (remember you used to have to go "ask" for a loan and prove your credit worthiness) chose to open the flood gates of credit, by constantly advertising and selling to anyone remotely interested. They then took those loans and sliced and diced them and then bundled them up so to sell as financial instruments to another gullible class of investors. This was all done for the fees they got for first making the loan them selling the CDF, on the market.... it was aided and abetted by banks, bond rating agencies, the real estate industry, and appraisers... none of which did their due diligence and rubber stamped the whole process. less
the banks who historically controlled credit, for decades (remember you used to have to go "ask" for a loan and prove your credit worthiness) chose to open the flood gates of credit, by constantly advertising and selling to anyone remotely interested. They then took those loans and sliced and diced them and then bundled them up so to sell as financial instruments to another gullible class of investors. This was all done for the fees they got for first making the loan them selling the CDF, on the market.... it was aided and abetted by banks, bond rating agencies, the real estate industry, and appraisers... none of which did their due diligence and rubber stamped the whole process. less
stndyogrnd 25 minutes ago
When they ran out of suckers the whole thing exploded. The whole scam inflated the price of housing, created a bubble economy that covered up the fact that for the decade we were steadily losing manufacturing jobs, so that when it burst there were massive layoffs with millions of people whose only "crime" was that they wanted to own their own home. or were encouraged to borrow against the value of their home that was really just made up and didn't exist. The majority of folks in this country were conditioned to believe that banks would not loan them money unless they were a good risk. That is what happened and the majority of the money went to those banking institutions that had grown so big that when they failed they took the ability of the rest of the economy to function with them, forcing the Government to choose between a total shutdown of the economy or bailing out the banks.. less
TheScott 8 minutes ago
+1 Vote
it was aided and abetted by banks, bond rating agencies, the real estate industry, and appraisers... none of which did their due diligence and rubber stamped the whole process.
Sounds like fraud to me...... Where is you honest and upstanding presidents independent Justice Department.... The laws already existed.... the problem is, at least for those who are connected.... we have no rule of law.
We don't need new 2000 page convoluted pieces of pork excrement to fix the problem... we just need to enforce the law.
And all through that you never once mentioned the controller of the credit.... the enabler of irresponsible government... The Federal Reserve Administration.....
Sounds like fraud to me...... Where is you honest and upstanding presidents independent Justice Department.... The laws already existed.... the problem is, at least for those who are connected.... we have no rule of law.
We don't need new 2000 page convoluted pieces of pork excrement to fix the problem... we just need to enforce the law.
And all through that you never once mentioned the controller of the credit.... the enabler of irresponsible government... The Federal Reserve Administration.....
louman 15 minutes ago
+2 Votes
You will always be in denial as you left out the most important part.
The government allowed the loans in the first place with near zero percent interest rates. When the maroon at the Federal Reserve (Greenspan) raised interest rates the greedy people that signed up for the cheap loans took the hit.
Did they buy more that they could afford? YES.
Did congress sanction it demanding the loan companies provide sub prime type loans.
YES, congress was at the forefront.
Nothing happens without government. Good and bad.
The government allowed the loans in the first place with near zero percent interest rates. When the maroon at the Federal Reserve (Greenspan) raised interest rates the greedy people that signed up for the cheap loans took the hit.
Did they buy more that they could afford? YES.
Did congress sanction it demanding the loan companies provide sub prime type loans.
YES, congress was at the forefront.
Nothing happens without government. Good and bad.
TheScott 3 minutes ago
uoooh..... you beat me to it....
I like your last line so much, let me say it again.
Nothing happens without government. Good and Bad.
But of course SYG will say "yeah Republican government"..... but I say no.... lawyers love democrats and so does pharma.... and most recently, it has found a new friend in insurance as well.....
I like your last line so much, let me say it again.
Nothing happens without government. Good and Bad.
But of course SYG will say "yeah Republican government"..... but I say no.... lawyers love democrats and so does pharma.... and most recently, it has found a new friend in insurance as well.....
stndyogrnd 1 hour ago
I am talking about over regulating, sticking it's nose where, frankly, it has no business. It isn't governments business to tell me how I spend my money nor is it the business of government to tell business what products to make
It is absolutely the business of Government to use taxes or incentives to steer innovation and habits (like certain types of energy consumption) in one direction or an other. It is the absolute business of Government to assure that products are safe, and are what they say they are. It is the absolute business of Government to keep "you" from scamming the rest of us, in the market place, buy insisting that the consumer be as informed as possible as to what they are purchasing. There is no hard fast line between "government" and "commerce". The fact is that people that are fanatics about the religion of "capitalism" tend to have it backwards and think that people exist to serve commerce... its reverse commerce exists to serve humanity. less
It is absolutely the business of Government to use taxes or incentives to steer innovation and habits (like certain types of energy consumption) in one direction or an other. It is the absolute business of Government to assure that products are safe, and are what they say they are. It is the absolute business of Government to keep "you" from scamming the rest of us, in the market place, buy insisting that the consumer be as informed as possible as to what they are purchasing. There is no hard fast line between "government" and "commerce". The fact is that people that are fanatics about the religion of "capitalism" tend to have it backwards and think that people exist to serve commerce... its reverse commerce exists to serve humanity. less
TheScott 19 minutes ago
+2 Votes
First of all, when you talk about government... you are ALWAYS talking about federal government or probably to its ultimate design, world government. because anything that you can say about the various states and the federal government, you can say about a world government and a sovereign. I believe in a much narrower set of responsibilities for the federal government. And their is a big difference between informing people and regulating the choices that people have. I don't have a 'religion' of capitalism but I do have a health respect for the world that it has built. I would say that the poorest person in America is a darn sight better off than billlions of others in the world. No I don't believe that the consumer and the country exist to serve business.... if left alone business that put out bad products would soon find themselves without customers. As to your comment above... you can blame the Federal Reserve and the Federal Government for the unbridled credit expansion. less
stndyogrnd 7 minutes ago
Practically no one or no country in the world has not brought into the idea that capitalism is the economy of choice..... "communism" is dead ... it won't be coming back unless humanity reverts back to an agrarian society that barters....
So now humanity, must face the limitations and destructive tendencies of capitalism. Capitalism left to its own devices, can be just as oppressive as and tyrannical as any "communist" dictatorship that ever existed..... the only thing capable of controlling it is a strong representative Government that derives its power from the people it represents.
There needs to be a fire wall between the religion of Capitalism and representative Government just like there is between the rest of Religion and Government. Americas future depends on that firewall being established. less
So now humanity, must face the limitations and destructive tendencies of capitalism. Capitalism left to its own devices, can be just as oppressive as and tyrannical as any "communist" dictatorship that ever existed..... the only thing capable of controlling it is a strong representative Government that derives its power from the people it represents.
There needs to be a fire wall between the religion of Capitalism and representative Government just like there is between the rest of Religion and Government. Americas future depends on that firewall being established. less
stndyogrnd 2 minutes ago
We the people need to make that happen, by what ever means possible. The FED and the FED Government that right wingers like to keep blaming for the credit expansion are corrupt tools of the high priests of the religion of Capitalism. They need to be put in their place, as they have become convinced that the world exists for them and their excessive need to own and control all wealth. They are wrong. No one wants to "wipe" out capitalism or even create a "one world Government". But the forces of Capitalism would love to see a one world "Corporate Culture" where the agenda of the Corporations is given top billing and that they are the Elite of the world that are beyond the Control of any Government.
TheScott 11 minutes ago
+2 Votes
"It is absolutely the business of Government to use taxes or incentives to steer innovation and habits (like certain types of energy consumption) in one direction or an other. "
Perhaps its your governments business but my government doesn't discriminate. Congress may decide to co-opt with private industry as with NASA but no. the use of taxes in that fashion is wrong. Like with cigarettes, if the government fells that it shouldn't be on the shelf, then legislate it out of existence as it does with fully automatic weapons. But to adjust the consumer behaviour with taxes, in my estimation is abuse of power. This is where we see the government differently.... you think it knows best and has the right to dictate its version of best... (when it suites you).... and I think I have the right to live my life as I will as long as I don't harm anyone else... Again, you say the government has this right or that... only when you interpret the commerce clause to mean... everything federal. less
Perhaps its your governments business but my government doesn't discriminate. Congress may decide to co-opt with private industry as with NASA but no. the use of taxes in that fashion is wrong. Like with cigarettes, if the government fells that it shouldn't be on the shelf, then legislate it out of existence as it does with fully automatic weapons. But to adjust the consumer behaviour with taxes, in my estimation is abuse of power. This is where we see the government differently.... you think it knows best and has the right to dictate its version of best... (when it suites you).... and I think I have the right to live my life as I will as long as I don't harm anyone else... Again, you say the government has this right or that... only when you interpret the commerce clause to mean... everything federal. less
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Twinsdad 0 second ago
This post by TheScott is the bedrock of the left vs. right/Capitalist vs. Socialist arguement
stndyogrnd 12 minutes ago
LOL no it is the berock of Rational objective human beings verse irrational delusional ideologues that believe that the human individual can be completely separated from their social component. Its not "left verses right" its the sane humanist that understands their connection to the rest of humanity,verse the delusional narcissist that believes in the fantasy that we are all completely separate own nothing to anyone, and every individual is entitled to amass and acquire as much power and wealth as they can no matter how it affect the rest of humanity.
TheScott 2 minutes ago
"There needs to be a fire wall between the religion of Capitalism and representative Government just like there is between the rest of Religion and Government. Americas future depends on that firewall being established"
Wow.... you're no saying.... Congress shall make no laws with respect to business.... Are you?
Of course you aren't. You are saying that congress should meddle in business and the business of people unhindered and unabated..
"it won't be coming back unless humanity reverts back to an agrarian society that barters...."
Well... I do worry for the future of the US as a competitive country.... we do have a lot of land that we could redistribute though..... government willing.
Wow.... you're no saying.... Congress shall make no laws with respect to business.... Are you?
Of course you aren't. You are saying that congress should meddle in business and the business of people unhindered and unabated..
"it won't be coming back unless humanity reverts back to an agrarian society that barters...."
Well... I do worry for the future of the US as a competitive country.... we do have a lot of land that we could redistribute though..... government willing.
TheScott 48 seconds ago
stndyogrnd 18 minutes ago
LOL no your through your paranoid fog are saying " You are saying that congress should meddle in business and the business of people unhindered and unabated..
When the people of America revolted from England, that did not revolt against Government, they revolted against not being represented by Government. That Government exist to serve the interest of humanity, that by in large is the working middle class. Capitalism also exists to server humanity that by in large is the working middle class. The right wing has twisted and distorted the idea into this obsession that Government cannot and should not control or regulate Capitalism or what they call "business" , When the reality is that right now Capitalism in the way of large corporations private and public, controls distorts representative Government. But the paranoid mind of the right wing is so obsessed with the idea of "Government" it can no longer discern the real evil and its source
When the people of America revolted from England, that did not revolt against Government, they revolted against not being represented by Government. That Government exist to serve the interest of humanity, that by in large is the working middle class. Capitalism also exists to server humanity that by in large is the working middle class. The right wing has twisted and distorted the idea into this obsession that Government cannot and should not control or regulate Capitalism or what they call "business" , When the reality is that right now Capitalism in the way of large corporations private and public, controls distorts representative Government. But the paranoid mind of the right wing is so obsessed with the idea of "Government" it can no longer discern the real evil and its source
"No one wants to "wipe" out capitalism or even create a "one world Government".
That's like saying no one want to take libertarianism to its extreme... of course their are people who want nothing other than one world government. The CFR and Bilderburg are exist to see it happen.. Most of our recent presidents are members. Please, if you believe that, I see why you don't fear democrats and their friends the way I do.
"The FED and the FED Government that right wingers like to keep blaming for the credit expansion are corrupt tools of the high priests of the religion of Capitalism."
The one thing that you MUST always remember is that the Federal Reserve and its member banks are now and always have been representatives of the banking industry. Their fiduciary is to their banks... the mandates are assigned by congress. beyond the mandates, the federal reserve is all about money expansion and credit. That IS their business. As for congress, the FED enables them like a drug user.
That's like saying no one want to take libertarianism to its extreme... of course their are people who want nothing other than one world government. The CFR and Bilderburg are exist to see it happen.. Most of our recent presidents are members. Please, if you believe that, I see why you don't fear democrats and their friends the way I do.
"The FED and the FED Government that right wingers like to keep blaming for the credit expansion are corrupt tools of the high priests of the religion of Capitalism."
The one thing that you MUST always remember is that the Federal Reserve and its member banks are now and always have been representatives of the banking industry. Their fiduciary is to their banks... the mandates are assigned by congress. beyond the mandates, the federal reserve is all about money expansion and credit. That IS their business. As for congress, the FED enables them like a drug user.
TheScott 3 minutes ago
"and every individual is entitled to amass and acquire as much power and wealth as they can no matter how it affect the rest of humanity."
So, you don't believe in private property rights and the right to buy and own same...... If so, where do YOU draw the line between having 'just enough' and 'too much'?
"The right wing has twisted and distorted the idea into this obsession that Government cannot and should not control or regulate Capitalism or what they call "business""
Their you go again with your black and white interpretations of my meaning of limited government... not no government... not no regulation....
"and every individual is entitled to amass and acquire as much power and wealth as they can no matter how it affect the rest of humanity."
So, you don't believe in private property rights and the right to buy and own same...... If so, where do YOU draw the line between having 'just enough' and 'too much'?
"The right wing has twisted and distorted the idea into this obsession that Government cannot and should not control or regulate Capitalism or what they call "business""
Their you go again with your black and white interpretations of my meaning of limited government... not no government... not no regulation....
So, you don't believe in private property rights and the right to buy and own same...... If so, where do YOU draw the line between having 'just enough' and 'too much'?
"The right wing has twisted and distorted the idea into this obsession that Government cannot and should not control or regulate Capitalism or what they call "business""
Their you go again with your black and white interpretations of my meaning of limited government... not no government... not no regulation....
TheScott 21 minutes ago
+1 Vote
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